Capstone | Talent Talks

Talent Talks: Jo Jackson

Introducing Talent Talks, the podcast where we dive into all things talent in the real estate, construction, and infrastructure world. From the boardroom to the building site, we’ll uncover the stories, insights, and people shaping our industry today. Our first series shines a spotlight on data centres, one of real estate's fastest-growing and most in-demand sectors.

In this episode, Sarah Davenport, Managing Director at Capstone, and Oli Coote, Data Centre and Real Estate Sector Lead, speak to Jo Jackson, Thames Valley Portfolio Director at SEGRO, as she shares her journey from 15 years in valuation to leading SEGRO's Thames Valley portfolio, including the world's second-largest data centre cluster at Slough Trading Estate.

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You can read the transcript of the discussion below:

Sarah

Jo, thank you for joining us on Capstone's Talent Talks podcast today. How are you?

I'm good, thanks, Sarah. And yeah, delighted to be with you and Oli this morning.

Sarah

Brilliant. So, what we always start with is you telling us a bit about your career so far and how you got there, so that we can get a feel for what underpins the career and success that you're experiencing now. Take us from the beginning.

So, I've got 20 years of experience in the industry, and I suppose it’s a little bit unusual in that I spent my first 15 years as a valuer. And so, I valued all types of assets all across the UK, a little bit overseas too. I actually never thought I would make the move client-side. And, perhaps by the time you've got that amount of years of experience, people will say, “You can't move after that, you're a valuer for life.” But actually, 4 years ago, I joined SEGRO. And so, I've made that step client-side, and my current role is a director here. I‘m responsible for the Thames Valley portfolio, and the Slough Trading Estate is the biggest part of that. I cover everything from asset management, leasing, as well as development. So, I see the whole property life cycle in my current role. So yeah, a very different type of role to what I was doing for sort of 15 years.

Sarah

Amazing. And how's the transition been from the consultancy side over to the client side?

Yeah, it was a tricky transition, which is probably kind of no surprise. And I think mainly because there was a lot that I needed to learn. Very different processes, very different experiences, and I needed time to get up to speed. But also, there's a really different pace, and some of that pace was quite difficult, and I was always used to working to very tight time scales that my clients would set me in that valuation world. And the biggest thing client side is that we as a company are setting those time scales. So, you're working at a very different pace and have much more control over it. But, I suppose it’s more relaxed as part of that. And when you're client side, managing a portfolio like SEGRO’s Thames Valley portfolio, there's always lots to do, and you've just got to work through that asset management or development and the leasing that needs to happen.

Oli

Yeah, the to-do list is never fully ticked off.

Is it ever?

Sarah

No, never.

And it's always growing. But I love that. The other thing that's great about the client side is that you're actually physically dealing with the properties that you are involved with, and you can see what's happening. And sometimes that can be kind of negative as well as positive, but you're living and breathing it, and you can make those decisions that will change that portfolio or move it forward, which is really nice.

Oli

Particularly with the trading estate there, I can see that to-do list. There's such a variety, isn't there? There's such a scale there that there's always a lot to manage.

Exactly, Oli, and the scale of the trading estate is 425 acres. And you're absolutely right, it's got a massive breadth of different users on their different types. So it's not just industrial, but it's also data centres. It’s the second-largest cluster of data centres globally, and we have 31 of those. But we've also got retail units, trade counters, and we've got some offices. So, a really wide-ranging portfolio, and you’re right, there is always something to do on the trading estate, and it keeps my team very busy keeping that all going.

Sarah

For those listening who are thinking, how do you transition from consultancy to client side? Maybe you can share how that came about because I know that's the pinnacle for a lot of people. They want to go client side. So maybe you can talk about that reality and how you got to that point.

I suppose I was very fortunate. I was valuing the Slough Trading Estate for SEGRO when they approached me, which is always a really lovely way for those things to happen. But I didn't think I was capable of doing the job because it seemed like a really wide role, and I thought, gosh, there's lots that I haven't done before. And I got some really great advice from some people at SEGRO that were hiring me around.

Actually, it was such a wide role that probably no person could tick every box. And it really was about thinking about what the transferable skills are. Things like the role talked about customer management, so all of our tenants are customers at SEGRO, and I'd obviously done client management and business development in a consultancy piece. That's exactly the same skill set. It's just different people that you're doing that with. A large part of my role is also managing a team. I've got a team of 9 that reports through to me. Again, you manage a team doing whatever the role is, and your skills are totally transferable. So often, I think it's a little wider than just the immediate piece of exactly what you're doing daily. And what skills do you have that are exactly the same regardless of whether you're on the consultancy or client side?

Oli

Yeah. And as your customer when you were at CBRE, they'll know how you deal with your customers at SEGRO regarding the end tenants that you're working with now.

Yeah, yeah.

Oli

And who are those tenants generally? Obviously, you've got 31 data centres, but beyond that, are you dealing with a wide range of tenants?

Yeah, we are. The Slough Trading Estate is probably one of the most diverse portfolios within SEGRO. We have smaller units of 500 square feet, the size of a garage, through to 100,000 square feet plus units. It's very much centred around our urban portfolio. So we can have lots of SMEs and businesses that are just individually run at the very small end, through to global businesses operating. It might be their HQ or it might be their Southeast base. So, with customers, one thing that we're quite proud of on the Slough Trading Estate is obviously our history. It's been there for 105 years, and some of our customers have been with us since the very start, which is incredible.

Sarah

Really?

Yeah, they are generally in different buildings apart from Mars. So, obviously, the Mars Bar was created on the Slough Trading Estate, and Mars is still in the same buildings today that they were when they started on the estate in 1932. It is incredible that you have this history and heritage that also comes as part of it.

Sarah

History and heritage are not usually associated with Slough.

Exactly, and there's a lot that I've learnt about Slough, far more than I ever thought I would learn about it. And actually, it's an incredible place in terms of things that were created there. The Ford GT40 was created on the estate, and then a slightly more modern one, not on the estate, but the wheelie bin was created in Slough. Would you believe it?

Sarah

Who knew?

Oli

And my colleague Rob Joslin and I were fortunate to have a tour of the estate not long ago. And I think we were taken past the first original tenant, from 1925 or whatever it was. And, interestingly, they've evolved. So, I guess there's obviously a natural evolution of those businesses on the estate too. And now they do something to do with ultraviolet water treatment, which I'm imagining wasn't a thing 105 years ago. So, it's interesting how not only do they stay with you, but they also evolve as businesses, which is great.

Yeah, and that evolution is super important, right? And the estate continues to evolve. And you're right, Hanovia or the customer that had been with us since 1920, and we've moved them around different buildings, and processes have changed. That's a bit like data centres, where actually data centres have only really been on the estate for the last 20 years, since the first one was there. And that very much started with them occupying industrial space. And then of course, over time, that's really changed, and we're now purpose-built multi-storey data centres, kind of shell and core for mainly the co-locators we have on the trading estate.

We're now building those buildings for them. So that evolution is super important for the estate to keep making sure it's got its place. And we're creating the best buildings out there to host what the business needs, given the timeframes involved in data centre construction, for example.

Oli

Have you noticed any shifts in priorities over the past few years with the clients that you're working with there who are going to be taking that space? Because that's obviously evolving at such a pace as well. But equally, the time frames are relatively long in terms of actually getting operational. Is there anything interesting happening there?

Yeah. And you're right, Oli, we can build the shell pretty quickly, in about 12-15 months. But then, of course, there’s a really long fit-out. For the data centres, it’s normally much longer than the construction, and of course, where a lot of capital comes in, in terms of that fit-out as well. But I suppose in terms of trends, certainly something that we're seeing is the demand for larger and larger facilities. The first iteration of what we had on the estate were very small data centre operations in industrial-type units. Something that is now bespoke, has the right floor loading on multiple levels, and configured in a way that suits the operation they wish to put in there, is really important. It will be different based on which customer you're talking to, in terms of exactly what that design looks like. So, we make sure that all of our data centres, the pre-let, and that obviously enables us to have those discussions, and make sure that the design is right for them and will suit their operation.

Oli

Yeah, interesting. And with regards to things like ESG and net zero, and all that sort of stuff with data centres, there's quite a lot happening there. I'd noticed when we were there, there were various considerations given to that, which is quite interesting. How are you finding that side of things, too?

Yeah. The ESG side of things is super important and right at the core of SEGRO’s strategy for Responsible SEGRO. And actually, we were one of the first to insist on green lease clauses for the data centres, and it goes around two things. One is providing data to us so that we're clear on energy usage. But two, that they are procuring green energy contracts. Now, most of the data centre providers, if not all of them, are actually already signed up. And they all want to corporately be doing that anyway and are committing to doing that. So that wasn't really a problem. But we just wanted to make sure that was very clear in our leases that we were committed to ensuring that green energy is a part of that.

Oli

Yeah, you set a bit of a benchmark then, don't you, across the estate, which is great.

Yeah, yeah.

Sarah

If we think about the career that you've had, this is one of the two questions that we have pre-prepared, as it were. I'm always a big believer, Jo, that there are moments in our careers. Sometimes we don't know it until the moment's gone or people in our careers. Again, we might not know that until the moment has passed and we reflect on our careers, but there are some really influential moments. Has there been an influential person in your career that has shaped or got you to where you are now, or how you operate now as a leader or in the space that you're in?

Probably nothing significant that I could say as one thing, but I suppose it's a collection of various elements, and you're right there. Sometimes you realise things at the time, or sometimes that's afterwards. One of the things that I am is pretty resilient, whether that is in tough moments that you're put under or navigating change. And I think that dealing with difficult situations, I can certainly pinpoint one in my previous role, valuing shopping centres during the worst performance of retail and having to go in and talk to boards and audit committees about why you've taken 50% off in the last year off shopping centre assets. It's quite tough.

And you form quite a lot of resilience around how you deal with that, and how you deliver that. And you then realise you've got quite a good skill set to go in and deal with those difficult situations and go and explain. I think another side to that, I suppose that period of my career that has helped me is that non-execs will always ask you a question you've never prepared for or something you're not quite expecting. And, how do you deal with that? And how can you be in the moment and fluid with how you respond to some of that?

Sarah

Yeah, I think that's really helpful because when you're at that moment, you're like “Oh my God, I've been completely unprepared.” But that's all part of it. That's how you become prepared next time and build that. You also start to realise that this is where people are different, and that's brilliant. You want a diverse range of people within the industry. Of course, you will have people who will want to prepare more and want to have everything written down and so forth. I'm not necessarily one of those. And perhaps an area where it's always good for me to continue to work on is making sure I do prepare for difficult meetings ahead of time, or something where you're not quite sure where it's going to go. Although at least it doesn't bother me when someone asks me a question. I have to think a little bit on the hoof. But I think it's fair, recognising which side I sit. And therefore, what preparation I need to do, and getting myself comfortable?

Oli

Yeah, if you're an expert, you've got to have that human element as well, haven't you?

Yeah. And also, let's face it, I mean, there's nothing wrong with saying, I'm really sorry, but I don't know that. Let me take that away, or we'll come back to you on that. And you don't always have to have all the answers, right?

Oli

And you're heavily involved in the early careers program at SEGRO as well, aren't you? How have you found that? And have you found some interesting things that have come out of that in terms of younger people coming in and their priorities or mindsets or how that might be shifting or changing things, beyond that program and maybe further up the tree? How are you finding that?

Yeah. And I co-ran our early careers programme here for 3 or 4 years at SEGRO. And during that time, actually for the first time in SEGRO’s history, we opened our grad scheme up to non-cognates. So, those without a real estate degree, we've supported and funded those who come in, then go on to undertake a master's while working with us. Now that's not new for the industry. And lots of companies have been doing that for quite some time, obviously bringing apprentices through and so forth. And I think some exceptional talent is coming into the real estate industry by opening that up, whether via apprenticeships or a non-cognate route. And yeah, we've got graduates that have come through since we've done that. We've got a really nice range. And I go back to that point that you want a really diverse set of people that will think differently or approach things differently. And within SEGRO, we've got a lot of different roles, whether on the development side, asset management side, or leasing. And you need different people to do that because it isn't going to naturally suit everyone.

Oli

We've talked a lot about it, specifically if you relate it back to the data centre sector. But I suppose more broadly than that kind of wider education piece, in the public, around what those sorts of careers can look like or if a career is available there. And making that pathway more transparent and clearer will help us attract a wider pool of people.

Exactly. And lots of organisations are doing that, whether that be the RICS or individual companies, with the work that they do alongside schools. And here at SEGRO, we've also got a school programme now that is more around actually ensuring that the jobs on the Slough Trading Estate are well known to local school pupils so that they understand. And, lots of that is also around data centres. And for a long time, the data centre industry has been quite close, quite small, not much was known about that and very few people actually work in the world of data centres.

And so, part of our local school program is to make sure that those at school will understand. And it's not just the pupils, it's also actually sometimes around thinking that their parents understand what that is. Because it can be quite a common misconception that data centres don't employ anyone. They can operate by themselves. And it's all to do with the data that goes between them. But of course, that's not the case. And there's a whole range of jobs, and whether that’s the same as it would be for any company, whether that's HR or finance, there's still a need within there, but also some really technical roles around the engineering side and technical design.

And I think data centres have made quite a bit of progress in terms of more people going into it. It's more talked about, which is good. More people understand what that means, even though it sometimes uses different language to other real estate sectors. And we're seeing lots more people going into it. And I hope that through our schools programme, we'll start to see more and more local people also understand. And the opportunity that fits there in the future.

Oli

And everything that it’s bringing to the local economy and, beyond that. But, it feels like we're at that, not an inflexion point, but because of the rapid advance of AI and how that's then forming some of the evolution of design, and so on, it's actually getting more airtime. And we're talking about it now, and you see it more in the media. And so, through all of these programs and outreach and conversations that we're having, hopefully it starts to filter through. And those younger generations will now start to have a bit more awareness of that and see it as a pathway. But even beyond that, because if it's linked to industrial logistics, then there's a wider pool of people that can come into real estate.

Yeah, exactly. And I think also the location of data centres historically started in the Docklands, and Slough has become one of the prime availability zones there. But of course, with AI coming through and some incredibly sized facilities that are supposedly going to be demanded, they're also going to travel out to different parts of the UK. So, we've seen Microsoft and others purchase land in the North East and think about big campuses elsewhere. So, it will also move around geographically in the UK.

Oli

It's quite cutting edge, isn't it, which you don't necessarily always associate with real estate in some respects.

Yeah, different parts of operational real estate in the last 10-20 years have come about and new sectors that were never there before. So, we're more used to real estate than we think. And then the next new big thing comes along and we’re like, oh, this hasn't happened before, but actually it has. And you think about experts that have come in around student accommodation, around BTR for a residential perspective or operational hotels. You know, there are so many different examples; self-storage is another one that didn't really exist before. And now there are lots of experts out there who have really deep knowledge in these sectors. And it's growing in that sense.

Sarah

How did you find the transition from whether it be shopping centre valuation or broader retail and commercial assets? Because a lot of what we do through Capstone is to try to support more diverse talent in all the industries we cover. But in this case, especially data centres, because there's so much more talent needed and the pool isn't there. So how did you find the transition from a non-data centre bias portfolio into one with a heavy data centre? What are the key differences, or was it smoother than you thought, or were there challenges there?

It's probably not something that I really thought about at the time, and perhaps that was helpful so that you weren't worrying, thinking I don't know anything about this, and you went with it. It's been quite helpful that over my career I've done a range of sectors and geographies across the UK. So, you're used to switching things up, and real estate isn't that difficult. It comes down to some basics that are always there. Therefore, there are a lot of commonalities to what's there, that it might be a slightly different asset class, but actually, the principles are still the same. But I think the data centre space is a little trickier. You know, I talked earlier about that different language, understanding the power side of things is super, super important, and all of that is brand new.

So, a few things, be prepared to go and do some background reading and research to understand it. What are the bits that you don't understand? Not being afraid to ask questions about it, as it’s something that you don't know, or try to find out. Well, who could I go and talk to about that, or where can I go and learn that? And then be prepared to go on that journey to understand it. And I probably would also say, time's great as well, isn't it? Just a bit of time spent around it, absorbing kind of what's going on and just allowing you to be that sponge to soak up what's going on and take it all in.

Sarah

Yeah. I mean, a building is a building, and there are obviously nuances around location and various other things. But it's good to hear because we have to open our minds to different backgrounds in order to supply talent to the industry.

Yeah. And I think, for me, that's where it then comes back to the type of person that you've got. And, is that candidate a good match for your business? Actually, the skill set that they have and the way in which they want to learn or apply things. And there could well be other characteristics they have that you don't have anywhere else. And yeah, they might be missing some of that deep sector knowledge on a really specific thing. But quite often, lots of that can be learnt super quickly. And people then spending time to share that experience and share that knowledge, which then helps that wider pool to actually upscale.

Oli

Yeah, it's the skills you've built through your resilience and adaptability that will probably be more important in those moments.

Sarah

OK. So, in your view, what are you most excited about over the next five years for the data centre industry in particular, Jo, I suppose it's seeing where this demand goes and AI and how does that really change the demand side of things? And how is supply going to keep up? We've got quite a lot of development to do, and I'm excited about doing that development and seeing that development through and seeing what we produce. And over a 5-year time period, things will change because the speed of change seems pretty fast at the moment. And I can't see that slowing.

There are some important power upgrades, certainly in the Slough market. And that will come through over that time period as well. So it will be really exciting to see all of that come through and then see where we're at. And I really hope that Slough is the second-largest cluster globally of data centres. I don't think there's any chance we'll become first ahead of Ashburn, VA, but it would be great to see it retain its second position over that time.

Oli

And are you guys involved in much on the power side, because that's such a prohibitive or facilitating factor?

Yeah, we are. And I suppose as you'd expect us to be, and I can't say too much because it's all quite sensitive information. But yeah, we will be bringing additional power through to Slough as lots of other people are locally because we've got a really big development pipeline. And so, we're bringing some of that from Uxbridge Mall, as the one that comes online. But as you say, the power is such a big thing. We talk about data centres needing 3 things: power, planning and land. And we do have some power, we want to bring more power through, and we've obviously got the land in Slough, that's for sure. And the other bit that we are super pleased about is our continuing partnership with Slough Borough Council in terms of our simplified planning zone (SPZ) that we've got on the trading estate. So that enables us to develop data centres or industrial without needing permission. The fact that we've got our SPZ for the next 10 years is essentially our planning permission. So, we don't have to go through that long and laborious task of getting planning, which is brilliant.

Oli

Absolutely. Yeah, that's great. There are so many great things happening. It's exciting. You look forward to the next five years plus, and actually, how vital that is to all of us. So there's a lot of good work happening there.

I mean, I suspect this podcast is going via probably one of our data centres in Slough right now. So yeah, it's vital. Otherwise, we just wouldn't be able to do things like this.

Sarah

Yeah, I've loved hearing about how you've transitioned not just into data centres, but how you've transitioned from value, from a pretty neat valuation role into such a broad remit over at SEGRO and as well as a broad portfolio and what's got you there. So thank you so much for sharing all of your experience and insights with us, Jo. It's been, it's been brilliant to hear.

Thank you both for having me. It's been good to chat all of that through.